I.A Kerosene Lamp at Seventeen Thousand Feet
InterviewerYou joined the NDA in 1982 and left the Army in 2023. What did you think the Army was as a seventeen-year-old, and how far was that from what it turned out to be?
OfficerI am a second-generation officer, which means I'm a fauji kid. Now they say fauji brat, Army brat. We were not brats in our time — we were simple kids. My father was also in the Gorkhas, so I always interacted and moved around with Gorkha boys and jawans. When I joined RIMC1 we were young, about Class 7, eleven years old. In our time NDA was after the eleventh, so we did only the eleventh and then joined.
OfficerWhen we joined, the Army was very different. There weren't comforts. Field areas were difficult. My second posting was in Kargil, a place called Batalik2 — Batalik is where the Indus gets into Pakistan. We were deployed at sixteen, seventeen thousand feet, astride the river, north and south. There were hardly any comforts. I used to read a book with a kerosene wick lamp. We read and passed time at night for an hour before sleeping, because there was no concept of lights, no concept of generators. It was only after a year of living like that, reading Liddell Hart3 with a kerosene lamp, that a Petromax4 became a luxury — it would light a whole bunker, and you could read comfortably, you could locate your toothbrush in the morning when you wanted to brush your teeth, or look for a soap.
OfficerOur staying conditions were not that comfortable, our equipment was not very good. Now that I have retired I find a lot of facilities, which is part of growing up — India itself has become more economically strong, so a lot of good things for the Army.
OfficerWhat has changed a lot is the troops. In our time we used to get a large number of Nepalese from the hills, the interiors of Nepal. They were more hardy, more sincere, more loyal, but they were not well educated — Class 3, Class 4 pass. Academically they were not good, but terrific soldiers. Now you have more educated people, all of them tenth, eleventh, twelfth pass. And in any case, for the last four and a half, five years there has been no recruitment5, which as senior officers we feel bad about. But that's the government policy between both.
OfficerBut yes, the Army has changed, and changed for the better, and become more challenging — because for us in the infantry we were basically managing men, humans, and that is the most dynamic kind of person. Where do they come from, what problem do they have, how do they want to be addressed. It's a good challenging life.
Contextual Notes and Historical References
- 1 · RIMC
- The Rashtriya Indian Military College at Dehradun, which admits boys at about eleven and prepares them for the National Defence Academy.
- 2 · Batalik
- A sector of the Kargil district of Ladakh on the Line of Control, where the Indus crosses into Pakistan. In 1999 it became one of the four main battlefields of the Kargil War.
- 3 · Liddell Hart
- Sir Basil Liddell Hart, the British military historian and theorist of the indirect approach — standard reading for a young officer.
- 4 · The Petromax
- A pressurised kerosene mantle lamp, far brighter than a wick lamp, and for decades the best light available in places without power.
- 5 · Recruitment from Nepal
- Recruitment of Nepalese citizens into the Indian Army's Gorkha regiments has been suspended since 2022, when Nepal declined to send recruits under the Agnipath scheme.
II.A Fauji Household
InterviewerBeing a second-generation officer, how much of your decision to join was shaped by your family, and how much was something you arrived at independently?
OfficerWe joined school in the early seventies. I started my schooling at Cambrian Hall, because that was a time when my father was posted in Sikkim, which was a non-family station, and my mother stayed in Dehradun. Then our unit came to Kanpur. So I grew up in a fauji house, and the Army was always there as one of the options.
OfficerIn '76 my father took the initiative. I am the eldest — I have a younger sister, then a brother. He said, because of so much shifting, let's put him in RIMC. So I took the exam from Madhya Pradesh, got selected, and joined.
OfficerOnce we came into RIMC it was a no-brainer that all our seniors went to NDA. It became more or less focused — we hardly had people who went out, except those who were medically unfit or couldn't make it. In our time the concept was purely: get into NDA. And this is the late seventies, early eighties. There weren't too many options out in the street. It was not so easy for us to think, and we were actually not as smart as you all, to take a call after the tenth and say let's do something else. Some did, and they're doing well, but they were far and few. So for us NDA was a very natural progression.
III.What the Gorkhas Expect
InterviewerWhat did serving with the Gorkhas teach you about the relationship between an officer and his men?
OfficerYou would have heard the famous line of Field Marshal Manekshaw — that if a man says he is not afraid of death, he is either lying or he is a Gorkha1. That speaks a lot. And it's well documented right from British times. The British never conquered Nepal; having fought the Anglo-Gorkha Wars of 1815–18162 they had a treaty, and they realised these chaps are good fighters — why fight them, why not get them into our Army. That is how the Gorkhas came to the British Indian Army.
OfficerWhen India became independent there was a Tripartite Agreement3 between the Government of Nepal, the Government of India and the Government of the UK, to say that we will recruit Nepalese citizens into our Army and they will all be treated at par with our own.
OfficerGorkhas are extremely simple and honest. They will tell you on your face if they have a feeling or if they find a problem. And they will also expect their commanders to know their problems — so after some time they will not tell you. They expect that just by seeing his expression, seeing his attitude, seeing his behaviour, you as a commander are supposed to know that Ram Bahadur is not okay, and to find out what the problem is.
OfficerAnd the only thing they expected was that their officer should be as good as them or better. So it was difficult to be accepted. The interesting part is that in the British Indian Army the British never found Indian officers competent to officer Gorkha troops. They always had British officers, and it was very late, in the early forties, that Indian commissioned officers were given to Gorkha battalions. At Partition they were absolutely sure the Gorkhas would all ask to be taken to the UK. They were shocked when, out of the ten regiments, six wanted to stay back in India4. That was a big shock — how can these Gorkhas agree to being officered by Indians? But by then the Indian officers had proved themselves.
OfficerSo you learn so much from them that after spending time with them you become one of them. You start exhibiting the qualities of your troops. And you also start expecting that your superiors should judge you fairly, because you're doing a job. That is the attitude most of us developed.
Contextual Notes and Historical References
- 1 · The Manekshaw remark
- The best-known tribute to the Gorkha soldier, attributed to Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, who was himself commissioned into the 12th Frontier Force and later affiliated to the Gorkhas.
- 2 · The Anglo-Gorkha Wars
- Fought 1814–1816 between the East India Company and the Kingdom of Nepal, and concluded by the Treaty of Sugauli. British respect for Gorkha soldiers in that war led directly to their recruitment.
- 3 · The Tripartite Agreement
- Signed in 1947 by Britain, India and Nepal, governing the service of Nepalese citizens in the British and Indian armies. It remains the legal basis of Gorkha recruitment.
- 4 · The division of the regiments
- At Partition, four Gorkha regiments transferred to the British Army and six remained with India. A seventh, 11 Gorkha Rifles, was later re-raised in India.
IV.Kathmandu
InterviewerYou went to Kathmandu in 1998 and stayed until 2001. What kind of years were those to be an Indian officer in Nepal?
OfficerFor a Gorkha officer, a posting to Nepal is always prestigious. We were three officers in Kathmandu and one each in West and East Nepal — five Gorkha officers, all part of the Embassy of India. Our primary job was to take care of Indian Government pensioners, of whom Army pensioners were the largest group. Disbursement of pension, their welfare if they faced problems, communicating with the Government of Nepal, trying to get aid from the Government of India for them.
OfficerAnd since we knew the language, since we knew their culture, we knew where our men came from. Some of us trekked in Nepal even on leave. Unless you know — even in India, if you were to command Sikh troops and you don't know the culture, the language, what they eat, how they dress, it doesn't make good sense. In the Gorkhas the regimentation is much stronger. Not only me: my wife picked up fluent Nepali too, because you have to interact with the families, with the wives. How do you, if you don't know the language? Language is one of the best things.
OfficerWe had two earth-shaking events while we were there. One was the IC 814 hijack1 — the Air India flight hijacked from Kathmandu to Delhi, which ultimately landed in Kandahar. It was challenging because there were staff from the Embassy on that flight. For us it was day-to-day meetings, what's happening, what can we do.
OfficerThe second was the Royal Massacre2, where the entire Shah dynasty got wiped out — leaving aside two of them, everybody was killed. That was again a very challenging period. We were told not to travel outside, because typically there may be an India hand, till things came out as to what happened and what didn't. So it was difficult, interesting, but we always had a way around, because we knew the people and we had made good friends.
Contextual Notes and Historical References
- 1 · IC 814
- Indian Airlines Flight 814, hijacked on 24 December 1999 shortly after leaving Kathmandu for Delhi, and flown eventually to Kandahar in Taliban-held Afghanistan. One passenger was killed; the surviving hostages were released a week later in exchange for three prisoners.
- 2 · The Royal Massacre
- On 1 June 2001, at the Narayanhiti Palace in Kathmandu, King Birendra and most of the Nepalese royal family were shot dead. The event effectively ended the Shah dynasty's standing and hastened Nepal's transition from monarchy.
V.The Surplus, and the Journey to Landi Kotal
OfficerTo share a small anecdote. When I came to Nepal we used to disburse pension. Those were days when banks were not many in the interiors, so from Kathmandu we would build up to a place that had a bank, and for eight or ten districts we would conduct pension-paying camps once in four, five, six months. We would draw out a massive amount of money — five crores, six crores — and disburse it over two days, then draw again and disburse again.
OfficerAt the end of a day, somewhere in Western Nepal, the cashier comes and says we have surplus money, forty-five thousand surplus. Now, normally there would be shortages, and the concept is very simple: if there was a shortfall, the cashier would make it up. There was no question of somebody else chipping in. So count, recount, and give — and it was all a massive melee. So it was quite surprising that something was surplus. Who tells you today that there is a surplus?
OfficerSo we put a filter and worked out who it could be. We realised it had to be an elderly widow collecting pension after eight or nine months — a substantial amount. We identified four or five and sent some people, and lo and behold, we found a lady of eighty-plus. The cashier, instead of giving her a bundle of five-hundred-rupee notes, had given her a bundle of fifties by mistake. And she had not counted. They would just take the money, do namaste, thank the Government of India, and carry it home and put it wherever it is, and never count. She was so sure that no Indian would ever cheat her of her dues.
OfficerSo: the cashier reporting a surplus; the lady not questioning; and the fact that we located her and paid back her dues. That is the entire cycle of trust between the pensioner, the cashier and the paying officer. And similarly, we had cases where a pensioner got surplus money, and when asked, owned up and returned it.
InterviewerIn September 2023, in your last months in service, you went back to Kathmandu. What was that like?
OfficerIn the infantry you have a Colonel of the Regiment1, and I was fortunate to be Colonel of the 9 Gorkhas, my regiment, for three and a half, four years. Every year two Colonels of the Regiment out of the seven Gorkha regiments travel to Nepal, interact with pensioners, with the Government of Nepal, with the Nepalese Army. So first was to meet and greet our old people, see what improvement is taking place in our offices, what more we are doing for them, what their problems are.
OfficerAnd I went at a time when there was no recruitment from Nepal, so we had good discussions with the Ambassador and with the Nepalese Army about how we can get Nepalese troops back into the Indian Army, who had done so well. Some of my staff were still there. They had all aged — they were young clerks then, and they were still there, some of them. It was a good feeling.
OfficerLet me narrate another incident of how simple and honest they are. Pension is disbursed to the next of kin — once you marry, your wife's name is endorsed, and when you pass on, the pension goes to her. Now, this is pre-Independence. A young soldier of seventeen or eighteen got married, and when his documentation was done he probably didn't know her full name, so the pet name was entered — Sati Maya. Over time, in the sixties or seventies, he died. And the lady coming forward to claim was, by her real name, Dhan Lakshmi. So the problem came: who is the real claimant? For years she didn't get the payment.
OfficerI happened to interview her. Can you imagine — this lady is in her eighties, and she is describing how she went from Nepal to a place your generation would not know. Have you heard of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa? There is a place called Kohat. So this is the description of a journey by an illiterate Nepalese woman of seventeen, eighteen, nineteen. She says: I walked up to Gorakhpur, over six, seven, ten days. From Gorakhpur she sat in a train and travelled to Bombay. She got down, and embarked on a ship to Karachi. From Karachi they were put in a train, and she went up to a place called Landi Kotal2. And then in a vehicle she was taken to where her husband was located.
OfficerSo I said, where is the doubt? Today, this illiterate person is describing a journey from the hills of Nepal to the North-West Frontier Province. It cannot be fudged. It cannot be a lie, because our children today would not know it — even people who study geography would not know this kind of a journey. And she is describing it because she experienced it. That is the kind of truthfulness.
OfficerSo we explained to the head of pension disbursement in India: the mismatch of name has already happened, Sati Maya is actually Dhan Lakshmi, but both are one person. At least, if you want to keep it for the sake of documentation, give her fifty per cent. And in our time we managed to get that done — give her fifty per cent, and after five years, if no Sati comes, give her a hundred. Very fulfilling. Just imagine a widow not getting the pension.
OfficerWe could have just done away with it — names not matching — the way you go to a bank and they take ten of your documents and say the documents don't match, the name doesn't match, the spelling is wrong, you're not the same person.
Contextual Notes and Historical References
- 1 · Colonel of the Regiment
- A senior serving officer appointed as the ceremonial and pastoral head of a regiment, responsible for its traditions, its serving soldiers and its veterans.
- 2 · Landi Kotal
- The town at the head of the Khyber Pass, in what is now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in Pakistan, and the last stop on the old North-Western Railway before the Afghan frontier.
VI.What You Teach a Cadet
InterviewerYou were at the Indian Military Academy from 1993 to 1995. What were you trying to put into those cadets?
OfficerNDA and IMA are pre-commission training institutes. Who comes to IMA is a graduate, a boy or a girl. So the focus is on military subjects — tactics, signal communication, military history, map reading, drill, physical training, getting him fit, letting him fire, letting him know how things are done.
OfficerBut the most important aspect was the officer-like qualities, the leadership qualities. Because the moment you are commissioned you are expected to lead men, or women now, both. And leading here means leading them to battle. And that would mean leading them into a wall of fire. How do you motivate a person that — like in Kargil — let's climb that peak overlooking the national highway, and there are Pakistani soldiers there, and you know that there is no way you will survive, you will all die. How do you lead is the most difficult thing, and that is a thing which starts at IMA. First your men should accept you as a leader, and then they should trust you implicitly — blind faith. If our Saab is going, or what he is saying is correct, we will follow him wherever.
OfficerThe time period was less — three terms for a direct entry, two for ex-NDA — but a beginning was made, and later in their battalions they built on those qualities. As you read military history, you read the performance of the junior leaders of the Indian Army, you will find we have had a very large percentage of casualties, and this happens because you lead from the front. If you were behind them you wouldn't be a casualty. So the Indian Army has been good in training its junior leaders, and our junior leaders have exhibited all that in actual war.
VII.Manesar, 2020
InterviewerIn 2020 you were involved in creating the isolation facility at Manesar, when very little was known about COVID. What was the most difficult decision?
OfficerCOVID surprised all of us. Delhi Area, where I was posted, was known for ceremonial — Republic Day Parade, Independence Day Parade. That was the major national-level task we would handle. And I remember it was February when we got a message that there are Indian tourists stuck in Japan who are not being allowed to disembark from a ship, and they have to be flown back to India.
OfficerTypically, wherever nobody works, the Indian Army is brought in. We were told these Indians have to be tested and isolated. It was difficult, because we couldn't get them in close proximity with the other troops. Nobody knew how things were going to pan out; the medical branch was trying to figure out the effects.
OfficerWe put them in Manesar, where the battalions going to UN missions were placed. It was just a piece of ground — nothing else. No facilities, no sewer lines, no water pipes, no nothing. Back of beyond. And there we had to create an isolation facility. What would be the shape, we didn't know. We used to discuss and talk it out: will you test them daily, can we change the staff who's inside.
OfficerBut the most difficult job was to find people who would agree to work in those facilities — the housekeepers, the sweepers, the ones who would go inside. The uniformed people, like I said, have no choice; anybody who is deputed, a doctor or a nursing assistant or a nurse, they were all there. But the other staff, the administrative staff — very difficult. So we had to understand their apprehensions. Ultimately we realised that if you give them more money they will agree. So we created three rotations of the staff, and we paid them double the normal rates. And because we had a deadline and had to be functional, we did that.
OfficerDifficult time, but then that model got replicated and became better, and it was always called the Manesar Model. Other places came around in India, by the Army and by other hospitals.
VIII.Leading by Example
InterviewerYour career moved between field command, training, intelligence, diplomacy, wargaming and senior administration. Which taught you most about leadership?
OfficerMilitary leaders continue to learn all through their careers. You never say that now I have become a Brigadier, or a Major General, I know everything about leadership. It doesn't happen like that.
OfficerCommand is the most difficult and the most satisfying, and I would say the last of the direct command is the battalion command, where a Commanding Officer actually has to lead his battalion. And the simple part we realise is: leading by example. There is no shortcut to that and no replacement for that concept. If you are there with them they will follow you wherever. If you're not scared, if you're not afraid, if you are with them — they just have to see that you are there, and then they know they have faith that this gentleman will let us complete our mission while taking care of our security, our safety, our life.
OfficerOn instructional assignments, again, as a guru you can't say I know all and end all of my subject and nobody knows more than me. If you go with that mindset you will definitely make a mistake, or you will not correctly judge a subordinate or a student. There is an equal amount of learning from the young students being trained under you. It's never good to close your mind.
OfficerAnd wargaming was a typical thing for a Gorkha officer — into a total technical arm. By nature I like technology and I'm not scared of trying it out. The drones were just being talked about in our time. What it taught me was: embrace technology, rather than being scared of it. Normally people who are not comfortable say, you know, security — there will be so much data, there will be data overload. But the fact is you have to find ways to harness technology for effective utilisation of your troops and firepower.